sort of unrelated: I've got a mail from someone suggesting to get more conference slots by doing elisp-related talks/workshops one of the proposed idea is an elisp introduction/workshop wasamasa: Nice. I'm unfortunately way beyond that level, so I have difficulties thinking up something that's not too advanced for people to understand and implement in a 1-2h timeframe suggestions? they've done a similiar thing with clojure and went once for a simple web application, the other times with a graphical game of life I think writing throw away functions in elisp is an uncovered topic. you mean like when you're editing something and want to automate some menial task? wasamasa: For example. Or generate random input, as I am doing now. lol hm, that could work out didi: and yet you sound perfectly coherent rudybot: don't he look natural? *offby1: i'm sure if you take a look at various natural disasters occurring over the past several decades, you'll not see any significant uptick. In the tutorial, you could go through extending a program first, present primitives and common concepts, then tasks to solve offby1: Randomness is clumpy. That seems practical to me Is there an equivalent of the * in vim to search for the word that the point is in? rudybot: I've _never_ seen an uptick; I suspect they're an urban legend Introduction/workshop i mean *offby1: And the slight uptick in calculation inflation is why we can't continue expansionary monetary policy? zdm: what kind of program specifically? zdm: I'm personally fond of doing packages that have very little to do with editing rudybot: there's no such thing as a _slight_ uptick. I say: if your flour has upticks in it, throw it all out I'm not sure, just some random plugin for example. zdm: such as emacsrepl currently *offby1: i'm sure if you take a look at various natural disasters occurring over the past several decades, you'll not see any significant uptick. I'm sure. Since the whole point of emacs (it seems to be to me [newbie] anyway) is the ability to extend and modify stuff, which is where elisp gets used hmm funnily enough, it gets harder the closer you get to core hmmm sleep time so from my experience, newbies just install some shiny looking new package instead :D see ya *** Quit: Jonsky (~user@cm61-15-137-59.hkcable.com.hk) left #emacs: Quit: Time to count the sheeps wasamasa: maybe an example of writing a major mode? Maybe you need to encourage them to dive deep, else where will future emacs developers come from? the stork zdm: it's a known issue -- not many if any people know about the bowels of emacs holomorph: that would probably go beyond the time slot zdm: That would not be approriatte for the basic tutorial which is about getting all users familiar with emacs, however, a more extended tutorial has been proposed before, and it's a good idea. At least a simple hack for improving workflow. OTOH, maybe you want to watch,,emacsrocks I think emacsrocks are an emacs tricks and tips screencast series by magnars: http://emacsrocks.com holomorph: and I know very little about it, other than it seems to be lots of trial and error tali713: well, we were talking about an elisp introduction not an emacs introduction holomorph: a minor mode on the other hand... I thought there was a difference yup, there is to write some useful elisp, you need to know emacs reasonably well zdm: ahh, fair enough, so an elisp tutorial. the current (info "eintr") manual is a bit basic, while the elisp manual itself is a bit too advanced, we definitely need something in between. :) mhh I considered writing something interactive with exercises, reminiscent of codecademy I nominate magnars for the job. ;) :D that would be very cool wasamasa wasamasa: sure, foo-koans and 4clojure spring to mind, but those are simply exercises for becoming familiar with the language. I'd be interested in that, wasamasa. I'm a sucker for those things. fds: really gamification is the future! my main problem with it is that this format is lesser explored and I have no idea whether it will beat classic studying with rcirc, there is a password keyword, but i dont really want to have my irc passwords in my init file, thoughts on what I could do besides not using the password keyword and handing my pass manually? I for example like TIS-100, but would prefer something less flickery :D wasamasa: no, it won't, but it's a good supplement and ice breaker. zdm: just use an empty password ,zow ecbrown: Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries I don't think it can replace classical studying, but it can augment it. You can study more without feeling like you're studying. an empty password? i dont get the joke.. with gamification of learning, I consider the textbookification of gaming (see zelda strategy guide) I dislike too much gamification, but I think it's wonderful to just make it as effortless as possible to practise a skill. my weirdest game concept idea for it is that your job is fixing the game it could of course just be a pretense, like in TIS-100 and merely be for unlocking levels to play task one of elisp workshop: fix emacs's bowels :DDDD fds: it can be a good provocateur of study though. like the psi (magic) mod for minceraft that is dependent on understanding vector math. but study and practice /together/ is the best strategy, IMO. fds: mm, i disagree. practice takes effort, and often practice is difficult. wasamasa: I'm sure you watched this before, but just in case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk39mp8Vy4M tali713: I'm not familiar with Minecraft at all, but I'm not saying gamification can't work. But it doesn't always work and it can even alienate some students (in a similar way to false corporate friendliness, for example). sg2002: I've seen it pop up in my news, but didn't really watch it (just skip over to see the slides) sg2002: guess I've got some watching to do... zdm: Of course it is, that's why you want to make it easier if you can. What I mean is that you don't need to have levels, or points, or whatever, to do that. wasamasa: only thing i can say is, dont take too much inspiration from codecademy. considering ive looked at it once, and even with my limited programming experience it was way too basic and hand-holding zdm: well, my kind of handholding would be mostly debugging helpers like what tali713 said earlier, somewhere in between so that you can reset properly, inspect whether what you're doing is right, etc. fds: sure, so I divide "gamification" into two categories, one of them is where the skills/knowledge are need to achieve an end, and the other is more like interactive flash cards, they intend to replace practice as in "by rote" not as in "by practical use". and easily accessible help to what you need zdm: I mentioned codecademy because I want something textual with interactive bits inside zdm: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/2cpnzk/using_emacs_with_rcirc_and_easygpg_for_automatic/ http://teensy.info/iTh1GYxpYv thanks ecbrown zdm: they do it with JS and something on the server doing the checks, whereas I'll be doing all that in elisp fds: so take the example I gave, you need need to practice (do exercise) in vector math to use it, but you do need to understand vector math to make use /of/ it (well). And minecraft is an open world, so no levels, etc. but that's a side point, the reward is great capacity, as all learning should give you, not an arbitrary gold star metric. *** Quit: User458764 (~textual@62.147.220.187) left #emacs: Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… that first need is suupose to be a don't. one of the problems with doing an emacs workshop is giving people a not too bare-bones environment it's one of the few cases where I believe starterkits are a good thing to have :D no idea which one though... they need HELM fds: like figuring out how much supplies you will need to build a real rope bridge across a ravine, and then doing so, practices a large number of mathematical skills, along with physics. but doing so in real life might be a bit dangerous for a school field trip. (no matter how effective that might be) yeah, helm is invaluable for me to quickly look up everything i just set up two neophytes with emacs -- ibuffer, helm, company, ESS, solarized Just discovered the magic of helm a couple days ago, fucking love it. (all with quelpa) oh, you mean a hand-crafted init file? tali713: Textbookification of gaming is underrated. I love that DCS A-10 requires studying 671 pages flight manual. The only way it would have been better, if it was in info. quelpa-use-package, to be more specific that could work, but need testing to ensure it does on other platforms than what I'm using sg2002: ikr can i get python-mode to print the code sent by C-c C-r in the ipython repl (started with C-c C-p)? i want to see the code in the ipython repl, not just the output. wooden__: My guess: not easily never looked into it though wooden__: there is a package that copies the code you'd send into the repl, then evaluate it wooden__: it works for a number of languages, including python IIRC https://github.com/kaz-yos/eval-in-repl it's a bit weird as it screws around with your window layout, but other than that... wasamasa: thank you. i'll give it a try. tali713: Right, I see. So how would we make that work for ELisp? Does the bridge become, say, a minor mode, and the gamification comes in by breaking the task up into smaller sections, helping you find the information you need, and helping to check your solution is correct. fds: absolutely. *** Quit: zdm (~zdm@unaffiliated/zdm) left #emacs: Quit: row row fight the powah wasamasa: Personally I'd have choosen some basic domain problem, provided OOP solution for it in some popular language, and then showed different ways to implement it in elisp. Like using EIEIO, cl without eieio, dash and so on. Going from the opposite direction, find some things you want to show off and then build a use case for them. sg2002: hm fds: a few helper function that are useful on their own, adapting that into a minor mode, learning instrumentation, customization. each level grants you a greater facility with your editor. sg2002: I believe that to be more of a parlour trick to be honest while providing discrete rewards at each stage. sg2002: must be me doing that once in a while here... sg2002: and mostly a matter of taste, look at tali713 solving problems for example tali713: Sounds good. :-) wasamasa: Yeah, but that's the point. To highlight versatility of elisp. I like how the emacs manual mentions that Microsoft Windows is also know as Losedows wasamasa: hmmm? tali713: pcase oh, pcase is fun. tali713 is pcase crazy. for me it's doing things in vanilla elisp as much as possible and indulging in theoretical optimizations sg2002: I believe you'll enjoy http://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html then hey, I've also built a trampoline. Using pcase, I bet. didi: I can't remember, it's been a while I can only remember that I provided an example for that thing *** First activity: jmatos joined 2 minutes 14 seconds ago. Does anyone here use icomplete? I think I found a problem with minibuffer-force-complete-and-exit when using icomplete. didi: sure enough, I use it for the transform. Hehe. I knew it. literally the first function https://raw.githubusercontent.com/tali713/tail-call/master/let-recur.el Specifically, the fix for bug#17545 prevents using C-. and C-, to select a completion and then C-j to use it if nothing was typed into the minibuffer first. you know what the most satisfying part of holding a talk is? the beer afterwards? being allowed to ask the crowd how many of them use XY unfortunately you don't see that part in recordings :P Apparently wasamasa hates beer. that's right, I prefer weizen It just uses the minibuffer default, and ignores the fact that the user selected a completion. ,g weizen [g] http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/style/89/ http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/697/2042/ Isn't it a beer? for some reason it isn't considered one where I live germans be crazy I'm on GNU Emacs 24.5.1, as shipping in Debian testing ,sicp-bait Should a beginner take the highly recommended Python road that MIT uses now or the highly critically acclaimed SICP road MIT used to use? SICP is like Shakespeare: Everybody praises it, no one reads it. *** Quit: patricles (~user@45.55.226.202) left #emacs: Remote host closed the connection tsk tsk: http://i.imgur.com/QDXu9GU.jpg Oh, right to left. Sneaky. so, only fictional characters read it my university's computer science curriculum used to have an introduction to programming course using PLT Scheme. They recently switched to python. jmatos: do you attend MIT? wait, MIT used to use ... MIT scheme offby1: Técnico Lisboa (Portugal) *** Re-join: zdm (~zdm@unaffiliated/zdm), left 13 minutes 24 seconds ago sg2002: I must say, I like this one, no memes or any of the things that annoy me in presentations these days sg2002: the coding style is a tad weird, but other than that... wasamasa: -"Your resume says you are fairly proficient in haskell, what was your motivation for learning it?" -"Well there was a joke page on the internet and I decided that I need to grok it." I would probably have over-engineered that tic-tac-toe :D